Money Can Buy Me No Love
It is important to realize that while Thailand is much modernized in some aspects (i.e. it leads the world in producing the best Thai microwave foods and the largest amount of mp3 Thai songs in the world), most families still keep to the tradition of dowry in marriage.
Many Westerners have a look of distaste when asked to pay a dowry or in Thai “sinsod”. It also sadly caused many genuine farang-Thai couples to break up over a misinterpretation of culture or when no consensus is reached for some Thai couples. I recently heard an unbelievable story of how a future mother-in-law demanded a middle-class Thai guy to pay 10 million baht for sinsod. She was generous enough to offer him installments, with 0% interest even! He broke up with the girl shortly after he found out her price tag, even though the wedding cards were already printed. But who would blame him, POOR guy!
Sinsod is a way to honor the bride’s parents for raising her the best way possible. It is also very much a status symbol in
Thai soap operas are a good measure of the state of mind of Thai people. Where do you think the screen writers get an inspiring idea from? They obviously look at what is going on around them. The story of a daughter from a rich family going through storms of trouble in order to be with her poor guy, is therefore probably not far from the reality at the going dowry rate. “Thank God she’s a girl”, many parents must have thought or risking the life of bankruptcy! Looking deeper into the dowry issues, these practices can be seen as a result of our class system, which looks down on inter-marriage between members of different classes. Maybe the point I am trying to illustrate is a little extreme, aside from matching wealth, parents also look at qualities such as levels of education, religion, and family reputation. One has to wonder, does love count at all apart from in the Thai soaps?For those of you guys who are in the process of marrying a Thai lady, here is a little guidance on the subject:
- The bride’s family should take care of the costs for the marriage ceremony and party. The amount the bride paid towards the ceremony should be matched by the groom, and to be given to the bride’s family.
- It is common for the guests to bring some cash to cover some of the wedding expenses.
- In most cases, the dowry is just for the “show”, and is returned to the couple to use to start a new family. When you see “TV-stars” receiving millions, don’t be fooled, the cash didn’t go to the mother-in-law.
- If you and your other half have much antagonism over the subject, then you should reconsider getting married. Money should not break both of you apart, and if it does this is not the right person for you.
- Wait 1 to 2 years before you marry. There is no rush (unless you are 70). There are some couples who have known each other for 3 months, tie the knot, everything turns out fine, and to top it off they win the lottery too. Anything is possible! Increase your chances by taking your time to get to know the girl and her family. The old adage is true “when you marry the girl, you also marry her family”. Getting to know her is just the tip of the iceberg.
For those of you farang boys who are in the process of marrying any Thai ladies, not to rain on your parade, but you should be fully aware of the full implications of marrying them. This is simply a generalization, and there are plenty of exceptions to the norm.
- Thai culture is unfortunately still largely segregated by class and origin. You will be looked down upon by Chinese Thais, if you pursue a relationship with a bar girl.
- There is no set dowry, but it is typically determined on one hand by the suitor’s wealth (Thais by large reckon all “Farang” are wealthy), and on the other hand by the quality of the future wife.
- Originally, the dowry was a way to prove that you could afford to look after the daughter, but I have heard stories where Isarn girls and their family squeezed money out of farang like Genie in the bottle after the marriage. Tensions between a farang husband and Thai wife will rise if he does not support her family, at least somewhat. The poorer his in-laws, the more true this is; the better off they are, the less true the rule is.
- She may be a village princess, but if under suspicion, get her background check before you tie the knot, and get a solid prenuptial agreement. Better to be prudent, than to be sorry.
Can you put a price on love? Although there are no absolute rules, the amount of dowry is pretty well fixed on the girl’s social standing, and is rarely negotiated. In general, the amounts according to social standing are as follows:
Lower-class, up-country girl 30,000 to 50,000
Middle-class girl 50,000 to 200,000
Upper middle-class girl 200,000 to 500,000
Girl from an affluent or influential family 1,000,000 +
Not every girl I know asked for dowry at her wedding, and that’s one more reason to respect and love her even more.
8 responses so far
Hi Nikki
I read your article about “Sinsod” (the name says it all!) with interest.
What “pre-screening” do you do on your famale members?
Also do you have any statistics for the success rate of Thai-farang relationships? Yesterday I was quoted 3%, but that sounds too low.
Best, Philip
Dear Nikki,
I read your article on “Can buy me Love”.
I am Dutch, met my Thai husband in UK and was married 9 month later. No not because I was pregnant. My husband had completed his studies and other duties he needed to do before his return to BKK. Neither of us had “oodles of money” The opposite. My parents paid for the civil marriage, certificate, and we had lunch at home, with my own family and grandmothers. I paid for my own plane ticket and often had to supplement Husbands “pocket money”. His whole salary was given to MIL for “allowing us to stay” with them. I had not met any of my husbands family, they did not even know about us. Husbands brother arranged for the paperwork needed from Thailand, duly translated in English. My husband left and I followed a few months later. His family had just moved into a new house, previously lived upcountry. When I was presented to his parents, his mother turned her head away, refused to acknowledge me. His father was welcoming and proved my only protector against MIL [Mother In Law]. My MIL opposition to me knew no bounds. After returning from working in two places, at around 9 PM, there was not a scrap of food left. One day I had enough, I shouted I want food, I am hungry. Husband to afraid of his mother, tried to shut me up. It was FIL [Father In Law] who went out and got a bowl of noodles. From then onwards he made sure I had something to eat upon returning from work.
This went on for 6 years, until MIL shouted = get out!!!!!!!!!!! = We did with the help of husbands sister who had returned from the USA, with husband and little boy. In the meantime, I to had a baby boy. MIL tried to put her stamp what he could and could not eat. It was a constant struggle but I resisted her attempt as much as possible. Even after moving out, MIL tried to interrupt our lives, by “dropping by” [even tough she lived far away from us] ordered my servant around, who ended up in tears. Every Sunday we had to go and visited husbands parents, but as usual I was completely ignored.
All this has happened 43 years ago. I am still in TH and still with my husband, although he starts showing his old age. Our son spend some years in UK for study and continued in USA, where he now lives with his wife.
To return to your article. I am very opposed this “bride price” dowry. It has become “cash cow” for many families and handicaps what love is all about. Boy meets Girl and fall in love. Love is an easy to say word and misused. Love, respect, tolerance, learning to share a life together, takes time and has to be worked on. Yes, you can fall in love and have a good life together. On the other hand it can turn out to be a nightmare, if boy & girl do not get along after a while, when the glamour fades. Look what we have read, about Indian weddings. Costing a fortune and often Mother of the Groom demands more and more. Uses the DIL [Daughter In Law] as a servant and even kills her, to obtain new “cash cow”.
Money, Status, is more important than a happy union. Why are there so many who divorce? Why are there “Meer Noi”? Why are there “One night loves”? Why are there middle age farang who are looking for a cute small chick? Mid-life crisis is one reason, particular of Farang male living in TH. Coming alone for a “holiday” and meeting their Thai “wives”. Farang wives get fed up when they find out, dump their husband, demand a high price for the infidelity of their husband. Do not forget, often there young children involved, who the father no longer wants to recognise.
I can speak from experience, as I have seen it happening to some of my close friends. Very sad indeed. Thailand should be classified as “marriage breakup Country”.
Thanks for letting off steam and my own experience, of ‘married to a Thai”.
W R
Hi Nikki,
Loved your article on Can Buy Me Love.
I’ve been living here for 12 years and this is the first time I have seen someone refer to your class system in writing.
I’m fascinated to know more, especially as we Farangs come at the bottom of the heap, somewhere between dogs and the Burmese.
So your class system looks down on inter-marriages between members of different classes.
My first question is where do you come in this pecking order ?
At whatever level you were breed into, as I presume you cannot go up and down, do you feel comfortable, disadvantaged or inhibited ?
When I first arrived in London at the end of the sixties, my first motive was to marry into inherited wealth, but it only took one debutantes party for me to change my mind.
In England due to so much inter-breeding of the high classes they have unfortunately all ended up looking like horses, can the same be said of the Thai upper classes ?
Again back home all these people lead an insidious life style by only meeting and mixing with their own ilk, public venues that don’t require invitations or membership are rarely frequented. Again is this the same ?
Of course as far as the dowry issue is concerned most Farangs just can’t get their heads round to this way of thinking.
Some have argued that some kind of trading should be set up, something along the lines of a cattle auction so that the true worth of each and every sin sod could be finally ascertained and realised.
Personally I feel that they should be traded on the commodities exchange, we already have the whole grummet ranging from orange juice to pigs bellies so why not sin sods as well.
Regards,
John.
I do have to agree with John here - the commodities exchange and a cattle auction to bring out the true worth of each and every sinsod. Nothing like a free market economy to let our self-interest iron out the kinks. There’s also the incentive of a new tax revenue for the government, hoorah. The oldest trade in the world they say. I bought an expensive watch the other day; didn’t seem to bring me more time so I was a bit dissapointed. Think I’ll get it warranteed.
Tiesda
Hi Nikki,
I believe that we know about Thai women’s reputation. I just wish your column, Ying Thai, will change Thais’ image to all farang. When they think about Thai women, it won’t be only bar girl. On the other hand, Typical Thai women are educated, independent. We are not waiting for the prince to rescue us. Like you said, dowry is no absolute rules including no standard price. It’s just for showing your social status. It’s for two people but Thais care for social status too much esp. Hi-so (high society). It would be better if they think about the money that they will earn and spend in the rest of their couple life instead of dowry.
Furthermore, I totally agree with W R’s comment and realize the problem in Thai’s society now e.g. Mai Noi, One night love including Gig (Thai’s slang; another word of Mai Noi but the same). For woman side, I just hope some Thai women stop dreaming of their prince. It’s time to stand on own feet.
Thai Lady
Dear Thai Lady
The original title of this piece was “Love is Priceless”.
I don’t think we can change the culture of sinsod, but if we think of it as a way for people to respect our parents for raising their daughter in the best possible way, then we might feel more at ease about the whole idea. The story about the Thai guy having to pay 10 million was based on true story, it happened to a friend of mine. I think reasonable amount to show gratitude to the parents for raising their daughter is acceptable, but demanding ridiculous amount and keeping it to themselves are right down demeaning.
There are two different things that are said in the story which you should seperate; one to do with bar girls commanding such and such and keep it to themselves, and the other is the cultural norm of paying the gratitude to parents, which normally would be given back to the couple to set up their own family. The sinsod culture has nothing to do with education or independent of modern women.
Dear Nikki,
I was very impressed by your deep analysis of the Thai concept of dowry. It was very enlightening to me. I agree with your analysis. Thanks a lot.
Johnny
“Sinsod is a way to honor the bride’s parents for raising her the best way possible. It is also very much a status symbol in Thailand, and in many other countries around the world such as India”
REALLY ? IN FACT IN INDIA THE CUSTOM IS THE OTHER WAY ROUND ! THE BRIDE’S FAMILY PAY THE HUSBAND ! IF THE MONEY IS NOT FORTHCOMING AFTER THE MARRIAGE NEWLY WED BRIDES OFTEN MEET WITH FATAL “ACCIDENTS” ,USUALLY IN THE KITCHEN !